John - Post Dream a Little Dream of Me

[sylvia_bond]

I haven't seen terribly many posts on this subject, but the ones I have seen have been intelligent and balanced. I imagine there are a few posts out there that aren't, and each to their own, but I hope I don't run across those. My weekly review is coming out tomorrow, and I'm thinking that I left the whole John as obsessive bastard out of it because I didn't feel that PRG was an appropriate forum for my own private views on the subject. Plus, rather than posting to this comment or that, in that I agree or don't, I thought I'd post my own personal thoughts here. 

First, the whole of Dean's dream sequence left me rattled. Yeah, TV uses the "confronting self" technique in more than a few places, and never in such a satisfying way. I mean, yeah, I got that Dean was going to face up to himself and that revelations were going to come of it, but NOT like this. If I thought Dean was hard on himself before, man, he was downright cruel. I mean, yes, he was helping himself face what needed to be faced, but like that? Don't know when I've last been so moved, to the point of standing up and shouting out loud. I don't know where Dean will go from that point on, but I sure as heck know he's not in limbo anymore. The whole scene was vicious and hard to watch and utterly satisfying. I downloaded it and watched this scene several times, trying to get a grip. Did he say what I thought he said? And what does it mean?

Second, yeah, what he had to say...and how he said it. In the beginning he's all like, yeah, Dean wake up, let me snap my fingers and you're history, wake up. Like it's that easy. Of course it wasn't. I think he felt like he was in real trouble when he says, "Come on, wake up," because he could see where Nightmare Dean was taking him and he didn't want to go. Not at all. It's one thing to know, in the back of your head that you are messed up and your own worst nightmare, it's another to face it. So Nightmare Dean taunts him, saying stuff that I never thought I'd hear said aloud, but that I thought. 

Yeah, I always figured Dean had Dad issues, why else would he be driving his Dad's car (and no other), wearing his Dad's leather jacket, and listening to music that was HOT when his Dad was his age? Obviously, he adores his Dad and wants to be like him, and imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. So there's that, and up to a point, it's normal to admire someone and want to be like them. So that part wasn't so bad. It was when Nightmare Dean started in with the  whole "all he did was train you, boss you around," and "Sam he doted on, Sam he loved," and "you're just his blunt little instrument," and Dean's getting steamed. I was AMAZED that Show went this direction with this, and that they said it out loud. With FORCE and INTENT. Then Nightmare Dean says the worst thing ever, "Your own father didn't care whether you lived or died, why should you?" Which is when Dean looses it and says all the stuff about The Dad being an obsessive bastard, and the part that broke my heart full out, "He was never there! He was never there for Sammy and I always was."

True? Obviously Dean believes it, which is what makes it hard. But it isn't, not really. Because, as any fan recalls, John sold his soul and the Colt for Dean's life. A father's love will sacrifice all, so it isn't really true that John didn't care whether Dean lived or died. But part of Dean believes it. Hell, maybe all of him does, regardless of what actually happened. He feels unloved, he feels like his one purpose in life has nothing to do with what he wants and who he is. He's been going on so long with his one purpose being look after Sammy that he's forgotten to be or want anything else and it's taken him this long to get mad. So I take this scene as less a reflection of John's parenting than on Dean's inabitlity to....be his own man. There's something whacked there. (Even though I've heard the theories that at around 30 you kind of fall apart and put yourself back together again. It happened to me, and then I read up on it, and warned all my friends who were approaching that point so they wouldn't think they were going crazy when it happened to them.)

I'm not saying John was inculpable here. I belive that yeah, he did train his boys and he wasn't nice. I think that he did make Dean his brother's keeper, that he meant for Dean to be a good solider, someone upon whom he could depend, and when Dean turned out to be the best blunt little instrument ever, it must have been rather hard for him to not use that. And keep it honed sharp. John was wrong in that his singlemindedness trained his boys to be hunters before they were old enough to determine that's what they wanted. Growing up as a hunter? My lord? That's no life. John had tunnel vision and his boys suffered for it. I think he suffered for it, come to that.

But I don't, at the same time think that John meant for it to happen. (If Mary had been around, demon or no, there would have been balance.) And I don't think he had any idea how what he was doing affected Dean, but, being the man he was and in the situation he was he NEVER LOOKED.  That's where he needs to take the blame. He never looked, he never thought, he never considered - and at the end of it all, his blunt little instrument is having nightmares where he shoots himself in the chest with a sawed off shotgun.

Dean was the kind of kid to take "look after Sammy" as the end all and be all of commands. And Dean doesn't seem the kind to complain about it, after all, pulling your little brother out of the flames at four years, and then again when you're 26 is going to solidify that command like cement. So while John's intent was to keep his boys safe (if you see life as a war, you train for a war), because Dean is that kind of guy, it all went screwy. I think what Dean is saying in this scene, to himself, because no one is listening but him, has less to do with The Dad and more to do with what Dean did with what The Dad gave him. 

Don't get me wrong, when I see the effect John's parenting had on his boys, I'm boiling over with fury and I want to spring into action on Dean's behalf. And I think both Dean and The Dad are both responsible for what went on, not in the same way, but it occurs to me, at this point, that for YEARS Sam kept saying "THIS IS BULLSHIT," because for some reason he could see the forest for the trees. Dad never listened because Sam was his kid and a mouthy one at that. Dean never listened because Sam was his baby brother and golly, couldn't possibly have a sane thought in his head that made sense. 

I think there's enough blame to spread far and wide here. Blame in the sense of taking responsibility, not in the pointing fingers sense. 

When I think about The Dad, I get a headache. Doesn't help that he looks like JDM, which makes me want to think about him all the more. 

 

Comments

[sheafleur.livejournal.com]

John would only be a selfish bastard if his main goal was in avenging Mary, but it wasn't. It was in keeping his kids safe. The threat of the YED didn't go away with Mary's death; it still had it's hooks in Sam. John could have gotten re-married, continued being a mechanic, ignored the supernatural, but the outcome would have been the same, maybe worse. Sam was still marked to be the anti-christ and that would have eventually torn his family, and the world apart.

My opinion on all this is that reality is fluid. Dad is dead and Dean is switching his thinking to do what he needs to do, to do what Sam wants him to do, fight to survive. If that means sacrificing his father's memory, so be it. I think little 4-year old Dean recognized the threat. He saw what happened to his mother, and being the person that he is, he wanted to look after his brother. For the first time in their lives, the focus has shifted to looking after Dean. His survival, his soul, is the priority. Neither Dean nor Sam knows how to deal with that.

I still think it's all a distraction. The demons still have a purpose for Sam.

Any and all blame rests solely on the Yellow Eyes Demon who tore their family into pieces. You can't blame the victims for doing what they need to do to survive.

[sylvia-bond.livejournal.com]

I love this idea, that the focus has switched to taking care of Dean, both Sam doing it, and him looking out for himself.

I agree that the YED is to blame for the entire problem. I sometimes forget about the YED because I don't like dealing with it. Doesn't mean the problem went away for the Winchesters, though. But, I don't think I agree that the people inside the problem (the Winchesters) have no responsibility. Yes, they did what they had to to survive, and it can be said that what a person does in wartime is not what they would do (or what would be acceptable for them to do) in peace time. Still. I think in addition to training Dean, John could have given him a little more attention and love. Would that have made Dean a less effective weapon? I don't know.

[sheafleur.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't know either. That's why I write about the Winchesters without their big stupid destiny and with a daddy who puts them first, even if he has a very spanky way of doing it.

I guess that's one of the reasons people write fanfic, to fix the things they don't like that are canon.

[sylvia-bond.livejournal.com]

LOL!!! Their "big stupid destiny?" Hee hee! I've never heard it referred to like that before, but you're right. It sometimes gets so DARK in this fandom, it's good to write (and read) about a Dad who's so attentive to his kids.

[sheafleur.livejournal.com]

Their destiny is stupid! I liked the show best the first season when it was about a dysfunctional family and they were roaming around the country killing stuff, encountering urban legends, getting to know each other again, staying in seedy motels, crushing on girls (and each other!) and looking for their dad. Then hooking up with John and Sam fighting with him!

*sighs* I was mad at myself for introducing a demon in 'silver refined.' but I got rid of him quick enough I think. He was just an excuse for John to give Sam a good one anyway.

[nocturnal08.livejournal.com]

I love how you've structured this so it actually isn't a condemnation of John, but that it doesn't absolve him, either. I find the way the boys were raised extremely disturbing and hard to get my head around, but still have a desire to see John as a hero (most heroes have screwy family lives; I think that's just the way it works).

I would say that at the end of his life, John did LOOK, though, and tried to apologize, to Dean at least, for what he'd laid on his shoulders.

What Dean doesn't forgive is not that his dad made him into a soldier, it's that his dad subsequently abandoned him. He was forged into the perfect instrument and then his dad/commanding officer left him in the middle of the battle. It's only once John is gone that Dean starts to question the man and his orders. He rebels, saying things like "dad had no right to do that" "dad's an ass". In rejecting the order to kill sam even if he turns evil, the soldier in Dean unravels a bit. The longer he's forced to struggle through on his own (no standing order to save his own ass), the more he is finally forced to see what his dad made him into and consider the possibility that he might actually crave a different future for himself (one where he has kids and carpools, apparently). To even have a chance at that life, though, he has to keep fighting. He has to keep being the soldier/tool, even though he no longer sees it as his duty to do so.

I loved this episode for how thoroughly it ripped me apart and I just hope that someday they put me back together. :/

[plutogirl10.livejournal.com]

So I take this scene as less a reflection of John's parenting than on Dean's inabitlity to....be his own man. There's something whacked there.

I can not agree more. It is exactly what I was thinking (once I got over Jensen's amazing acting to actually *think* about what Dean was saying), because it really has less to do with John and more to do with what Dean did with himself. Which is just parroting what you said, but Yes. Exactly :)

[sylvia-bond.livejournal.com]

Yeah! Watching Jensen, it seemed like he'd really internalized Dean's rage, and understood it, not just saying the words but feeling them. He's been working with the character long enough for it to happen like that - which is what made this scene so highly charged! (Lucky us!)

Poor Dean. Poor John. And poor Sam, watching this build for years and not being able to do a thing about it. They're all so MESSED up it's not even funny. *pets*

[sylvia-bond.livejournal.com]

You're right, John did try to apologize to Dean, but I think it was too little, too late, to quote Sammy. Besides which, directly after The Dad died, and when Dean found out he'd sacrificed himself, I think that erased anything pleasant in Dean's mind about their relationship. Not that he still doesn't love his dad, but that it all got painted dark after that.

That's so perfect, what you said. That Dean began to unravel without a commanding officer - espeically being given an order that would destroy him to fulfull. He's going through the motions physically, though his mind is starting to speak up and say, hey, wait a minute. Maybe Sammy was right! I think he was mortified to have Sammy see his little domestic dream like that - so he lied through his teeth. And not very well. : D

I have a feeling that Kripke is going to continue tearing us all apart in every single episode. It's going to get darker before it gets lighter.

[sylvia-bond.livejournal.com]

Okay, you're making me laugh again! Their destiny is stupid? Oh my lord. You sound like the kid in the Emperor's New Clothes: "HEY! You're naked!!!" And everyone's so shocked, but it's true. The Destiny thing is HARD. And bleak. But now, you know, Dean's said, "okay, good?" and Sam nodded his head, so at least they're going be trying again to save Dean.

[cormallen.livejournal.com]

You've already had some really insightful comments here - sheaseth's initial response is one I am in complete agreement with, for one. So, pardon me if I am responding to your excellent post with nothing but "WORD".

[sylvia-bond.livejournal.com]

WORD, uh, and, uh PROPS. Is that right? Back atcha. And stuff.

*hangs head*

Can't do it. Just can't keep up with all the lingo....but I'm glad you liked the review. I love writing them. You know that, right? And getting compliments back, so thank you!

[cormallen.livejournal.com]

Um. I think it's "props". I think you've got it. Um... *makes metal sign, pumps fist in air* - there, I can do that one.
(have some Demon!Dean, too - Demon!Dean goes well with metal signs, methinks)

[sylvia-bond.livejournal.com]

*bangs head, plays air guitar*

I'm expecting someone to make an "Enter Sandman" songvid aaaaany second now.....

[sylvia-bond.livejournal.com]

Yes, oh SHOW! It's amazing how absorbing it can be, and then again it isn't amazing, because Show has so much stuff going on, it's hard to attend to every little detail even if you have a microscope. And repeated viewings!

RL and as yet unwritten fics? You and me both. I should be job hunting like a bat out of hell, and what do I spend days on? This review. Not laundry, not other chores, just this review. I was ABSORBED trying to figure it all out. Glad you liked the results because that really adds to my pleasure in doing them in the first place.

As for Demon Dean I think he represents the potential for evil - which could happen (perish the thought) if Dean doesn't choose the RIGHT path out of the pit, cause I think there's more than one.

[cormallen.livejournal.com]

I actually just posted about my current dream vid. I wouldn't kill for this vid, but I want it something fierce.

[sylvia-bond.livejournal.com]

I am woefully behind as to what vids are out there for this fandom. Which is funny, because when I was into Starsky and Hutch I had everything practically ever done. Today, BING, a new vid a minute it feels like.

[cormallen.livejournal.com]

Let me see... I highly recommend any of dayln03's vids, found here. If you haven't seen deirdre_c's vid to Things That Make You Go Hmmmm, it is an absolute must, found here.

[sylvia-bond.livejournal.com]

I think I've seen the Hmmmmm one....what amazes me is that the newsletter has like five NEW vids a day, and how does anyone find the time to MAKE let alone watch? Going now....to watch!

[cormallen.livejournal.com]

I hate to say it, because I probably miss out on a lot of awesome vids, but I mostly only look at vids through my f-list's recs these days. It's all I have time for. There are some vidders I watch for updates - because I love them - but other than that, it's usually "hey, Alex, have you seen the vid by...?" and I go "no, link me!"

[sylvia-bond.livejournal.com]

So I'm not insane then, missing out. Not being able to keep up. Thank goodness. Watched "Come What May" by Daylno3, and I HOWLED!!! So much talent. I'm tempted to start a delious list just for vidders I like. Who have stuff I want to watch. You know, when you see one of theirs, and know the rest are going to be as good. :::sigh::: There are only so many hours in a day people! I can't keep up!!!

[sylvia-bond.livejournal.com]

Or if someone puts it on their rec list, that's an incentive to go watch. I sometimes get the urge to collect ALL spn songvids. Then I lay down and the feeling goes away because that would be too much WORK.